crypto end game

Discussion in 'Economics' started by wingspan, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. wingspan

    wingspan Freedom Flyer

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on the progression from fiat/debt-based economies to a utopian world where hard-working savers can thrive in freedom and equal opportunities. Is that even possible? Will TPTB use force to stop such freedom successfully? Will it matter if the richest fiat holders become the richest EMU holders? Will the bad guys leverage the anonymity of eMunie to gain even more power - like mobsters - or will good naturally prevail? All sorts of topics can be touched on here.
    Please be short in your responses - and don't over-quote. I'd like to keep this easy to read for others. If you wish to focus on a sub-topic, feel free to start a new thread and link to it. Thanks in advance.
  2. Fuserleer

    Fuserleer Radix Founder Staff Member

    Probably relevant that I wade in here with the first reply :)

    Yes, thats why we are here right? With the right technology, motivation and execution I have no doubt that the status quo can be changed.

    That's probably the trickiest Q of all as it depends on lots of variables we won't ever know and questions we won't have the answers to.

    Are we treading on the toes of banks, governments, corporations etc?
    If so, is that impacting their bottom line and by how much?
    Is it substantial enough for them to get hostile or to simply try to outmaneuver us?
    ...and so on and so on...

    However, just because we can't answer those questions, doesn't mean we can't take steps to mitigate them somewhat. I think I've mentioned it before that IMO the best protection is to become as big as the other parties firing the shots. Then if it "goes to war" so to speak, it's not an easy fight for them. Due to the then casualty and collateral damage cost, it simply might not be worth the trouble.

    Uber (and I'm sure others) had the same idea, grow fast and hard, so that by the time competition notice you and try to enforce their will, its too late. I believe Uber even managed to get existing regulation changed in their favor! Wow!

    That is the approach we are going to have to take I think, not just to thwart concerns raised by the question, but to also keep us relevant. I had a similar conversation last night talking about roll out and consumer on boarding strategies:

    XXX [30.11.16 00:50]
    Think 'buzz' and word of mouth
    Will work well

    Dan Hughes, [30.11.16 00:50]
    Hasn't worked too well for BTC ;)

    While it may have some effect, our platform is a fairer system, fairer economy and is very frictionless to enter, so I'm going to say no. I certainly don't think we will ever be in a position where we are "held to ransom" in the way that BTC and other cryptos are by groups such as miners...there aren't any miners! :)

    Whales can't do much to pump the price either as we have seen in the numerous tests of the economics. Of course it's not totally infallible, but the resources needed to negatively impact the system overall over the long term are pretty huge once the network is a fairly moderate size.

    Our anon is better than BTC and less than ZCash. I spent a LONG time trying to marry true anon with the other required features of the platform and I'm of the conclusion that it either isn't possible or we need someone much smarter than myself to figure it out (I won't get into the tech why :) )

    Back to the question, 12 months or so if you had asked me that I may have been a little worried about all the DarkMarkets piling onto the platform once it's go time, now I'm not so much. ZCash anon is better than ours, and so all the DarkMarkets have a perfect place to go to obtain perfect anon so use ours? They may move those funds to our platform later to take advantage of benefits that we offer, but the illegal trades themselves I very much doubt will be happening on our ledger.
    Collett, wezelvis, lovely89 and 4 others like this.
  3. Anima

    Anima Founders Staff Member

    I'd like to cast my point of view on some of the stuff here as well.
    For sure. The powers that be will not just hand over their turf for free. Dan makes the case that Uber is a case of how to be successfull, but thats painting with a wide brush. In Scandinavia, Uber is having a hard time with existing regulations and in Denmark, has been deemed unlawful for drivers. Using the service is ok, being a driver is punishable. The real power here is unionized taxi drivers in close cooperation with left-leaning political parties, who will try all they can to stop Uber from taking over.

    Will we see something similar with financial institutions and our platform? - for sure not in the same form. I suspect it being much more "in hiding" and now so much protests on the street. I actually suspect we get a slight push on that front, purely due to instabilities of the financial markets and an animosity towards bankers/the banking sector. Coming forward with resetting interest rates, it will open a new can of worms that will make people relive their anger towards the "banksters", financial elites, Bilderbergs, "whatever".

    I'll answer with a counter question and make another reply below: why should it matter?

    As Dan argues, there is no reason for it to matter unless there is an unfair advantage to starting out with a huge stack. Specifically, if there is a tendency for people with large stacks supressing people with smaller stacks. It is in a way unfiar no matter what, since there are effects similar to compounding interest, which have a tendency for some to stay at the top.

    Its in general a good question - OECD has a preso on income mobility here and it provides another angle. It depends on a lot of factors - one take away is, that as long as people from low income households are offered a chance to become mobile (investment in education by welfare state) there is a good correlation with income mobility. Link here

    So, being wealthy alone does not make you a threat - how you play the system and indeed the benefits that you might achieve - is the thing to keep out for. Keep advantages to a minimum and there is of course little concern about this problem.
    wezelvis and Lloyd like this.
  4. valladex

    valladex Beta Testers

    I think once the major banks have their own version of digital currency the lobbyist's will start pushing for more draconian legislation to outlaw any and all currency that is not of their own creation.
    Until such time though i feel the misplaced trust of the majority of the population in such institutions will be used to push their own currency, while at the same time, state media will continue to demonize any "non-official" currency as being only for criminal purposes.
    A PR campaign for emunie to distance itself from the drug dealers and paedophiles and get ahead of the demonization process would be advantageous. The sooner the public get the truth and not the typical propaganda the better.
  5. wingspan

    wingspan Freedom Flyer

    Somewhat related:

    John McAfee: a coming cyber currency _will_ end the Fed:

    TL;DW: it's a 1:10 Youtube interview excerpt where he is emphatic that the Fed and income taxes will disappear due to some coming unstoppable cyber currency revolution.

    It is like he knows all about eMunie but can't say it until the product is ready for public scrutiny. I think a lot of crypto enthusiasts yearn for what eMunie will do...even if they haven't learned of us, yet.
    skywave, trescuernos, Peachy and 3 others like this.
  6. rotane

    rotane Founders

    I wonder how fast eMunie can grow? From what Dan told me, I know that eMunie has so far raised 0.3mn USD funds. That means a starting market cap of 0.3mn. Let's assume, eMunie plays in the same league with Bitcoin. That means supply must at least be multiplied by 10'000, which is quite a number. And still 3bn is nothing compared to any National Bank balance sheet. What are the pessimistic, realistic and optimistic scenarios for eMunie to increase market cap by factor 10'000? By factor 1'000'000? Can growth be fairly distributed if it goes fast? I am not so sure.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  7. Anima

    Anima Founders Staff Member

    How much emunie can grow is hard to quantify - the goal is not just to reach some market cap, but enable seemless economic transactions. As such, the potential to replace bitcoin is just one of the aspects along the way. As i see it, the real potential is magnitudes higher.
  8. Peachy

    Peachy Founders Staff Member

    Yeah, I tend to agree. Also, trying to estimate the growth curve to something like the hockey-stick of Uber would be limiting as they are limited by the friction costs and effort of having employee/users setup time and then customers using their service.

    Ours will be more akin to the Facebook wildfire, but with even faster adoption (my estimates) as the USP (unique selling point) differentiation of this solution will be like selling ice water in the desert.

    Once a target area set of users realizes the immediate savings potential that will be enough to drive friends-of-friends to join.
    trescuernos and Lloyd like this.
  9. tadkis

    tadkis Beta Testers

    History of debt and money is 5000 years old so of course there are theories about societies a) without money at all b) without debt c) with monetary systems without interest rates.
    You can read Jacque Fresco ideas about future societies without money. Such ideas is quite utopian in todays context.
    There are quite good works on economical systems without interest rates what would change lives of "hard-working savers" significantly. You can watch little bit about it in here
    Economics without debt is (probably) possible with emunie. Debt is fuel of economic growth. So economic system will need to substitute debt with elastic money supply which will react to economics demand signal.
  10. tadkis

    tadkis Beta Testers

    There is no good or evil in this case. It is simple primary instinct to survive. That is why some (most) of the rich people are making all the effort to keep the wealth (and power) without acknowledging that it is short sighted. that is why (imo) all the investments goes into expansion of an existing economy and much less into science and future as it should be. It does not matter what kind of monetary/financial system will be , what matters is people willingness to change the future. Will it matter for emunie? No. Will it matter for our future? Yes
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  11. Anima

    Anima Founders Staff Member

    Interest free economics will just mean people will not lend money to each other. In that case, have a nice time buying your first house, car or any large single cost item. You would need people to rent their properties instead. Same with their cars. People prefer to own, and most people do not have that much cash in their account to buy a house outright.
  12. tadkis

    tadkis Beta Testers

    Think out of box, Anima. CB increases suply of money throu comercial banks. CB not always charges interest. but comercial banks do. if emunie acts as money suplier to the market and there are no comercial banks why should there be interest rates?
  13. Rickard

    Rickard Beta Testers

    There is always a cost in administering loans, and someone have to pay for it. As long as there is a market for loans, there will be interest. And as long as people need money, there will be a market for loans.

    The commercial banks will not disappear. Doesn’t matter what the currency is; fiat, bitcoin, eMunie, gold, etc. There will still be income opportunities for banks and other lenders. Commercial banks also earn money on investments, stock trading, fund management, corporate bonds, financial advice, business consulting, etc. They will not disappear only because the monetary system changes.

    eMunie will have interest too. That’s how it distribute new supply. So if I lend my eMunies, I will loose interest. Therefore, I will charge interest for the loan.
    Anima likes this.
  14. tadkis

    tadkis Beta Testers

    I havent said that banks will dissapear. i said that emunie supply system is different - does not involve comercial banks. and by saying that that emunie can be without interest rates i mean on macro level - emunie money supply can be without interest rates ( and it should be) . users lending each other is microeconomy level.
  15. Anima

    Anima Founders Staff Member

    Exactly, but you forgot the most important one: defaults!
  16. Rickard

    Rickard Beta Testers

    Yes, on a macrolevel eMunie is interest free because it is not based on debt.

    The current system is fractional reserve banking, where the money supply is credit. Banks create new money when they create new loans. Only a small part of the money is cash. And even the cash is distributed through loans from the central banks to the private banks. So money in itself is credit that we pay interest on. It’s a debt-based monetary system.

    With eMunie, the new supply is distributed for free to everybody who use the system, and as earnings to service providers. The new supply is not a loan that we pay interest on. In this sense it is interest free. It is not a debt-based monetary system.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  17. Fuserleer

    Fuserleer Radix Founder Staff Member

    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  18. Pizza

    Pizza I liket the pizza nomnom

    End game is to get people used to the idea of digital currency, then implement national digital currencies which will lead to the SDR becoming digital, basically a one world digital currency to enslave them all into the upcoming global antichrist system.

    Until then though enjoy these freedom movement crypto currencies. I can also see some digitize currencies operating on the black market for a period of time that counteracts state digital currencies.

    Those will all end also when people will be forced to accept a physical mark, barcode, chip, ect to continue to use their digital wallets.
  19. Peachy

    Peachy Founders Staff Member

    Well, I'm going to maintain my level of rational optimism and not start constructing a tinfoil hat, but I can understand the level of concern some have with the issues you've raised.

    I tend to think most people aren't inherently evil as that implies there is a level of high-intelligence. From my experience, most are not that bright (i.e. politicians) and their actions are more geared towards keeping themselves elected vs. doing anything nefarious.
  20. Jazzer

    Jazzer The Dutch connection Staff Member

    These are exciting times, that's for sure. I'm optimistic, for there is no stopping the movement that is going on.

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